There have also been ripple effects far beyond Gaza. There was a war with Iran, which the United States got directly involved in. Israel conducted airstrikes in Lebanon, Syria, Yemen, and even Qatar, leading many experts to question whether the rules of law apply anymore. And beyond all of this, there is a profound global polarization over this issue: Communities and countries are bitterly divided over the very facts that I’ve just laid out.

Exactly two years ago, on Oct. 7, 2023, Hamas crossed into Israel and killed around 1,200 people. It was an awful, inhumane attack. But that day also triggered a chain reaction of awful things over a long and bloody 24 months. Between airstrikes and ground incursions, more than 65,000 Palestinians in Gaza have been killed. A United Nations’ commission of inquiry said that Israel is committing a genocide—an assessment that the Israeli human rights organization B’Tselem concurs with. More than 90 percent of homes in Gaza are estimated to be damaged or destroyed. U.N. food security experts have said that there is a famine in Gaza City.

Exactly two years ago, on Oct. 7, 2023, Hamas crossed into Israel and killed around 1,200 people. It was an awful, inhumane attack. But that day also triggered a chain reaction of awful things over a long and bloody 24 months. Between airstrikes and ground incursions, more than 65,000 Palestinians in Gaza have been killed. A United Nations’ commission of inquiry said that Israel is committing a genocide—an assessment that the Israeli human rights organization B’Tselem concurs with. More than 90 percent of homes in Gaza are estimated to be damaged or destroyed. U.N. food security experts have said that there is a famine in Gaza City.

There have also been ripple effects far beyond Gaza. There was a war with Iran, which the United States got directly involved in. Israel conducted airstrikes in Lebanon, Syria, Yemen, and even Qatar, leading many experts to question whether the rules of law apply anymore. And beyond all of this, there is a profound global polarization over this issue: Communities and countries are bitterly divided over the very facts that I’ve just laid out.

On the latest episode of FP Live, I wanted to take a big step back and assess how the world has changed since Oct. 7. My guest was FP columnist Stephen Walt, a Harvard University professor and the co-author of the 2007 book The Israel Lobby. Subscribers can watch the full discussion on the video box at the top of this page or follow the FP Live podcast. What follows here is a lightly edited and condensed transcript.

Ravi Agrawal: Two years on from Oct. 7, 2023, are you surprised by where we are?

Stephen Walt: In some respects, yes. I don’t think anyone could have anticipated the full range of events that have taken place since that fateful day or how far-reaching some of the events have been.