I spoke with Murphy on the latest episode of FP Live, in which we discussed the bombshell news of the week, and also the topic we had originally agreed to chat about: FP’s new print issue, “ Billionaire Rule .” On that topic, Murphy said “the Trump administration’s intent is to turn us into a hybrid oligarchy-kleptocracy.” Subscribers can watch the full discussion on the video box atop this page, or download the FP Live podcast. What follows here is a lightly edited transcript.

Signalgate, the story about how Washington’s top security officials mistakenly added a journalist to their text chain about an imminent attack on a rebel group in Yemen, is actually not about the messaging app Signal. According to Sen. Chris Murphy, a Democrat from Connecticut, it’s about gaslighting—the fact that the White House “maintains they did nothing wrong.”

Signalgate, the story about how Washington’s top security officials mistakenly added a journalist to their text chain about an imminent attack on a rebel group in Yemen, is actually not about the messaging app Signal. According to Sen. Chris Murphy, a Democrat from Connecticut, it’s about gaslighting—the fact that the White House “maintains they did nothing wrong.”

I spoke with Murphy on the latest episode of FP Live, in which we discussed the bombshell news of the week, and also the topic we had originally agreed to chat about: FP’s new print issue, “Billionaire Rule.” On that topic, Murphy said “the Trump administration’s intent is to turn us into a hybrid oligarchy-kleptocracy.” Subscribers can watch the full discussion on the video box atop this page, or download the FP Live podcast. What follows here is a lightly edited transcript.

Ravi Agrawal: Sen. Murphy, I have to begin with Signalgate, when the Atlantic’s editor in chief was mistakenly added to a message chain that included the country’s top national security officials as they discussed a strike on the Houthis in Yemen. How damaging is this to the United States?

Chris Murphy: In and of itself, it’s something we could probably get over. But it speaks to the administration’s growing incompetence. This is a secretary of defense with no real, meaningful experience before taking the job, who badly bungled our initial interactions with Ukraine and Russia by telegraphing our bottom lines for negotiation to the world. That’s just diplomatic malpractice.

And now it’s clear that the administration is regularly violating, and will for the foreseeable future regularly violate, some of the most important security laws built to assure that classified data remains classified.

What is most stunning about the last two days is that the administration maintains they did nothing wrong. It suggests that they will continue to use private commercial texting services like Signal to communicate classified information.